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Subject: Tell me why....
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Scott User is Offline
Posts:256



07/01/2008 10:35 AM Alert 

Tell me why a stock car racer can walk away from a crash like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrfpWhLOTfY , a head on crash at roughly 180, but a drag racer gets sent to ICU with a glancing blow at slower speeds.

I think it is time to take a look at chassis certs.  I know everyone goes by SFI and that this has been debated on other boards but the evidence is pretty clear. 

Anyone have an opinion?

Tim Jones User is Offline
Posts:10



07/01/2008 4:16 PM Alert 
I went and looked at David's car last night to see what happened. I believe that in the case of Davids car the seat mount broke. This allowed him to make contact with the cage very hard.  The rest of the car and chasis held up really well. As racers we all need to look closely at our own cars to see if there is anyway to improve safety for ourselves.  Regardless of what the sfi says if you think there is a better I would do it. I am definitely going to go over my car and look for improvements to be made. 
Scott User is Offline
Posts:256



07/01/2008 4:42 PM Alert 
Tim thanks for the reply.  I was just discussing the seat issue with my driver.  Drag cars typically have very sparse seats, basically the driver is just strapped to the rollbars with a small light bucket seat, where the circle track guys have all kinds of retention devices, head, ribcage, legs. 

The circle track guys are also doing what they can to move the driver away from the roll bars I know even in a light wreck you can really bouce around in one of our cars.
Pitts Performance User is Offline
Posts:259



07/01/2008 10:55 PM Alert 
Davids car (cage) did it's job very well. I saw the whole thing happen and did in no way expect to see him in the condition he was. I don't know, and don't think anyone will ever know exactly why he got hurt so bad, other than he nocked the shit out of the wall and all the conditions just fell in to place.
I hope this accident will make everyone take a look at their cars and try to play out the "what if" situation.

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Monte Smith User is Offline
Posts:46



07/02/2008 1:35 AM Alert 
I have seen David's car, but never looked at it closely. If the seat and belts are properly mounted and pulled tight, the belts should hold the driver and the seat in the car, even if the seat breaks lose. This of course barring a horrific accident, that damages the integrity of the chassis, where the seats and or belts are mounted. It was also seem, that if his helmet was broken up as has been reported, that one, either his helmet was not adequete or his funny car cage had no padding. Not blaming David, or anything like that, known him for years, but things like this make you look at your own car and make sure this won't happen to you..... Racers take things for granted when all is going well. Just a "good enough" helmet, not really cranking those belts down, no neck brace, no gloves, no fire shoes and lounging pants, because fire pants are hot. These are all things I saw THIS PAST WEEKEND in some VERY fast cars. Yeah the track should have caught it, but racers should have more regard for their own safety, instead of thinking "it won't happen to me". Very glad David is going to be OK, but hopefully something is learned from his misfortune.

Monte
cragle02 User is Offline
Posts:19



07/02/2008 10:25 AM Alert 

My name is Chris Ragle the manager with Pro Photo Productions and I feel I know alot about this issue. I just started being around drag racing in the last couple of years ORSCA particrly other than that all I have ever done for both hobby and for a living has been working in racing (95% stock car racing). ORSCA and drag racing as a whole quite frankly SUCKS at safety in comparison to stock car racing. This goes for tracks, series, teams, and drivers. What i have said over the last year or so since drag racing has lost so many is this: Each one will be considered just another tragedy until some something is done. On the NHRA/IHRA the series need to make the tracks install safer barriers along the way and make for ample run off room or we aren’t racing at your track, plan and simple just like NASCAR did. They also need to make head restraints mandatory if not already and as a series devote a total research team (money) into nothing but safety. You may say well they wont do that because that cuts into their money but its seems Nascar has done so just fine at it.

 

On the local/regional level head and neck restraints should be mandatory AT LEAST for all classes above the index no questions ask. You look in these cars and some I shake my head in disbelief in what they let go down the track. No roll bar padding or not enough, drivers in seats that look more like lawn chairs, and some don’t even where full fire suits. If you are a racer be a racer, racing cost money and the safety is part of racing.

 

I saw that car in the video up close you wouldn’t believe what was bent or broke do to just brute force but the driver was fine and raced the next weekend!  

 

Scott User is Offline
Posts:256



07/02/2008 10:33 AM Alert 
Monte, I totally agree.  My driver had a small wall event  in a customers car (read not an outlaw) and it roughed him up pretty good.  Guess what we did the next week, yep we installed extra padding in the Outlaw car.  He also will not get in a car he doesn't fit in anymore.  It's pretty easy to think about how close all that stuff is to you when it has beat you up once or twice.
Pitts Performance User is Offline
Posts:259



07/02/2008 10:43 AM Alert 
Why does NASCAR require you to have a m/s car to take a 200mph lick and NHRA requires you to have a c/m car to take a 200mph lick. I've heard it said that a c/m molly car will break away and absorb some of the impact. If that is so I would rather take my chances in a m/s car than take a chance on catching a broken bar.

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Scott User is Offline
Posts:256



07/02/2008 10:51 AM Alert 

That has been debated at length on other sites and I am not an expert but I will refer you to my first post the evidence is pretty clear.  Just look at that video and ask how can we argue with results.

 

bob g User is Offline
Posts:68



07/02/2008 12:26 PM Alert 

also you guys must realize a nascar ,car wieghs in at about 3800lbs [i think] and most of that is cage, yes its mild steel[more forgiving thn CM] but they have a whole lot more cage in thier cars, to protect from all angles, i,ve always said a drag cage will not hold up in a head on, thats a given, just look at the front of any drag car,compared to a nascar car,so why would any one think a drag car is as strong as a nascar car, there is so much more cage in a nascar car,, where drag cars are not prone to the accidents of nascar racing, but if you want a drag car to withstand the same abuse than your back to the wieght factor, which nobody wants,  all thing have to meet somewhere for each type of application, the drag cars are getting faster ,and the cages are not meeting up to the wieght/power levels of some of these cars,and if they are brought up to specs[or above] most guys complain about to many bars or gussets...........we personally put in more than required ,always have ,but by no means are they nascar cage,s........


wo hoo 1500 feet from,Carolina Dragway

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Scott User is Offline
Posts:256



07/02/2008 12:47 PM Alert 
Bob I have never seen a stock car with a full funny car cage.  When I posed this question I was refering to why drag racers seem to get knocked out or beat up badly in a glancing (read not head on) wreck.  I think the drivers are too close to these bars in a seat that is inadequate.  I think the chassis are plenty stiff.  As a matter of fact you touch on a point, mild steel vs. CM,  that has had a lot of debate but they could be too stiff so that they transfer all of the shock to the soft squishy object in the middle.

A few years ago the IRL was having a problem with drivers  getting knocked out and concussions.  They found that the rear of the car was too stiff and therefore transfering the shock of a wreck to the driver.  All of these gussets we have installed over the years reinforces the stiffness of the chassis might help in a rollover but is it best for the more common type of drag racing wreck, less than 90 degree contact with the wall?  What absorbs the impact in a drag car?
Pitts Performance User is Offline
Posts:259



07/02/2008 12:58 PM Alert 
I was just curious why a m/s car can not be cert'ed beyond a  7.50 and a c/m car can. My opinion is that a m/s car could be built just as safe as a c/m car. I wouldn't mind adding an extra 100 pounds to my car if it would cert to 6.00. C/m is stronger compared to m/s. But c/m cars are allowed to have thinner bars wich gets the strength ratio back at 1 to 1. Because c/m is more brittle it requires more bars. To my understanding NHRA is only concerned with the drivers compartment. 

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Billy Mac User is Offline
Posts:233



07/02/2008 9:27 PM Alert 
You are right, Lester, SFI foundation does not give a rats rosy red backside about the performance capabilities of a drag chassis. They are ONLY concerned with the driver's compartment, period.
Scott User is Offline
Posts:256



07/03/2008 10:46 AM Alert 
Just to add to that Lester when you get the SFI book the only bars that are illustrated and refered to are the "cab" bars.  They are specific as to the configuration of and size of these bars and they give you several design choices but it is only for the "cab'.
Pitts Performance User is Offline
Posts:259



07/03/2008 12:51 PM Alert 
Posted By Scott on 07/03/2008 10:46 AM
Just to add to that Lester when you get the SFI book the only bars that are illustrated and refered to are the "cab" bars.  They are specific as to the configuration of and size of these bars and they give you several design choices but it is only for the "cab'.
Exactly!! That is why I think the front is one of the week points in most of these cars. With these big motors the only way to keep the weight ratio right is to skimp on the front end. 
To me the forward down bars and and corresponding braces and supports are just as important as the cab.  Several years back we saw a car crash at an "outlaw track". His transmission was pointed to the roof of the car and the drivers side front wheel was under his feet. All he suffered was a cut on the arm. The rear ladder bar bracket even broke loose, had it been the driverside it would have got him in the back.


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